How would you define leadership?
I would say that leadership comes with how you are being perceived. Back in the 1970s, I was seen as a leader, but I did not see myself as a leader. I’m now 70 years old; I was 33 when I joined the Board of Trustees of Vancouver General Hospital. I would have said, “Who, me, a leader? You’re crazy.” It’s really the case that you are not a leader unless people follow you. It’s as simple as that. There are different types of leadership. There are some authoritarian kinds of leadership. My leadership – and I view it as power leadership – is a coaching kind. That is, I want to lead people in terms of coaching them to be better individuals in leading themselves. I always see myself as a coach, as opposed to being the player: that defines my kind of leadership.
Is that the role you saw yourself in as an entrepreneur, as well?
Yes, because when you are building a team in entrepreneurship, you should take a coaching perspective. In starting a company, you have a concept of your end goal, but you have not defined the hard edges of the business, including whether you are able to make money or not. And then, bringing a team of people together, you have to take into consideration their capacity. You may have the wrong people. So, coaching is trying to draw out the best of people as you build your team.
Do you recall when you first started thinking about the concept of leadership?
When I began, I didn’t see myself as a leader per se. I saw myself as an activist who was always part of a team. Everyone on a team has different strengths. I have certain talents, and one of them is the capacity to learn, and to keep looking at myself, whether it’s the food I eat or the philosophy I believe in. I have an innate desire to inquire into the nature of things. That’s what I bring to the table: that inquiring process, particularly through my business, in terms of money management. I also look at why money supply increases. I consider why the central banks are doing what they’re doing, because in their behaviour there are clues to what’s happening with the money supply.
When you look at what happened with the meltdown on the economy in the last few years, you can see that it had been telescoped by certain behaviour. What happened in the capital market was that the moral sentiment shifted. The capital market did not care about the end market, the little guys. People were getting incentive to sell without any regard to the outcome. When I came into the capital markets in the 1960s, we separated the banks from the trust companies. The trust companies were the trustees in looking after people’s affairs. But, after the ’60s, banks took over trustee business, such as mutual funds. If you are managing a mutual fund, you are managing other people’s money and that’s a trust relationship.
And the fees they add …
The fees aren’t the banks’ money. They’re the little guys’ money. The concept or idea that you are in a trust relationship has been completely lost, because of the lack of separation of that responsibility. The meltdown occurred because of the abdication of that trust.
For you, the process of inquiry is about asking the right question more than having the right answer?
It’s about asking the right question and inquiring into the cause of things. The process of inquiry is more than just superficially reading about something. Often I have to make mistakes in order to learn. I do make a hell a lot of mistakes. And that’s a part of my way of learning.
Can you give us an example of that?
Back in the ’60s, I wanted to go into a waterbed business. I had a friend who was a carpenter, so, we were all into waterbeds. I still sleep in a waterbed. Well, I still like the waterbed, but our waterbed business failed. But it wasn’t really failure, because I learned a lot from it. I became much more structured as an entrepreneur, more financially oriented, and I was successful. But I’m interested in more than money. I delve into the arts and into education, and I have been the chairman of Vancouver Hospital. I sit on six or eight boards, most of them not for profit.
Our city has come a long way. Back in 1986 there were a lot of racial issues in Vancouver. David Lam, then BC’s lieutenant governor, was really concerned about it. I told David, “I want to start an organization called the Laurier Institute. And that’s to do basic research on the underlying causes of the conflict arising from culture diversity.” Of course, that conflict still exists. We did some really important work, and we like to think our work and our approach have been instrumental in causing Vancouver, and the province of British Columbia, to become what it is today, more accepting of diversity.
David Lam had the vision that all British Columbians would feel that they are part of the Pacific Rim. Now, in 2010, essentially we have accepted that concept, and everyone does see themselves as part of the Pacific Rim. That was pretty visionary on David’s part. He also knew that, in starting the Dragon Boat races, he was taking a risk. But you learn how to take risks. And I guess this is the issue here, that you don’t learn unless you do take risks in all endeavours.
The reason I am involved with the arts is that artists are the ultimate risk-takers. They are presenting a body of work to an audience. That’s really gutsy.
It’s like baring your soul.
Yes. That’s why I am attracted to the arts. Artists are on the edge and I respect that. Risk-taking is really a big part of being. The ability to take a risk, and to face the outcome. Taking the risk is the measure of success more than anything else. The outcome is important, but secondary.
How did your personal history – growing up in Chinatown, being the child of immigrants, eighth of nine kids – influence how you saw yourself in your community, and in Vancouver as a whole?
Chinatown certainly remains very much part of me. When I was young, the only organization Chinatown had was a community centre smaller than the size of a house. It was built by the YWCA, and was their community program. That small centre was a big deal for us, because that was the only place we could go and learn how to play basketball and socialize. So, during that time, the centre had a big impact. There are certain organizations that play a major role in how you grow and develop as a person. The church played a major role for me, too. The people within the church in Chinatown were instrumental in forming my values.
Can you describe those values?
I think that certainly my feeling of community came from that. There was a church camp I attended from nine to 18 years of age. During those summers, I learned values. I worked in the kitchen. I did chores. I worked as a camp leader of 150 kids.
Adult leadership comes with that kind of practice. You learn responsibility from the people around you. They teach and coach you as a young person. You develop a common moral sentiment. Now it’s a very natural instinct on my part to accommodate the needs of people I work with, and to coach them. So, to become a leader, it’s how people see you, more than how you see yourself. My identity in your eyes, for example, is that of a leader. You are recognizing me as a leader – and in doing so, you are giving me my identity of who I am. It’s as simple as that.
In the many organizations you are part of, and the businesses you run, how do you cultivate leaders?
I use the same basic principles. My personal values are the same values as in my corporate life, in running a business. I am what I am. In some quarters your personal values and business values may be separate. Not in mine.
You have a pretty incredible list of accomplishments. If you had to pick one or two of that you’re the most proud of, what would they be?
I don’t look at life like that way. I don’t view life as having accomplished this or that, for example, becoming chancellor of Simon Fraser University for six years. And therefore, wow, what a great accomplishment that was. It’s not. Everything is just part of the passage of my life, my journey. I am pleased that I was there and I am proud of it. But I can’t say it’s the most important thing. Equally important is that, during those years, I learned a hell of lot, loved academics, made a lot of great friends, and appreciated the importance of the university. And through that, I was able to enhance my entrepreneurial instincts with projects on the Downtown East Side.
Starting the Dragon Boat races with David Lam was a passage in my journey. Our goal was to make a part of Chinese culture a significant event for all British Columbians. Now Dragon Boat races occur right across the country! I am proud of that. But I can’t say it’s most important.
Life goes on, and new things happen, and now I’m involved with Ken Sims and John DeHart’s exciting, future-oriented Nurse Next Door home-care franchise company.
Government doesn’t look after you – everyone has to look after themselves. Nurse Next Door is going to be phenomenal business for seniors care.
I’m involved with another future-oriented project, Day 4 Energy; and I’m on the board of IISD, the International Institute of Sustainable Development, which brings me in with a group of global leaders in the area of climate change. That’s something I knew nothing about, but now I am learning so much. So these are other passages in my journey.
Forgive me for not saying what’s the best – the way things are, and the way things proceed, are the best. At age 70, I am still learning and I think that’s great.
As part of leadership, how did you improve your communications skills?
When young, I was a visual learner, relying a lot on pictures. So, writing well, and becoming an effective public speaker, was a really big struggle. I went back to night school to learn how to write well, and I started taking public speaking courses. Every young person should sharpen their communication tools. Now, when I give a speech, I have to go through about six drafts before I can really feel satisfied with it. I have a lot of good ideas, but I do hire speechwriters to put my ideas together. And then after that, I still have to come across as giving the speech naturally, from the heart. It’s hard work for me, not automatic.
At that early stage when you are in business, and you want to communicate, you’ve got a product to sell, you damn well better be good at it.
I have no doubts that, over the course of many years, you have been taken aside by various political leaders and asked to run for public office. Why have you chosen never to go down that path?
I have very high regard for those who enter politics. Politics in my mind is the art of the possible. And the art of the possible means that you have to adjudicate the importance of certain things, certain values, to arrive at the norms of the community. And I am not built that way. I won’t keep supporting someone or some party if I don’t agree with them. To be true to myself, to my own personal moral framework, I have to stay out of politics. During my work for Aboriginal people, Premier Gordon Campbell wanted a referendum on land claims. While I like Premier Campbell as a person, that’s one area that I could not support. Allowing a referendum on the land claims was going against the rulings of Supreme Court of Canada. And so I just would not, could not, support him on that. Now, subsequently, Premier Campbell has seemed to change his approach. He and I see very much the same way. I am a strong supporter of him now.
So might it be fair to say that you subscribe to the art of the impossible?
That’s true! I never thought of it that way, but that’s true. That’s what entrepreneurs are doing, making the impossible happen. I believe in the movement toward sustainability, and the principle of sustainability as a natural evolution. That to me is the where the future is – it’s the impossible that we have to make possible.